Bit Perfect Mode!

[MotleyG]

2 hours ago, maxmp said:

DAPs can do, but Poweramp is Android phone focused. Still as Poweramp is a community driven and actively developed app, if enough users request this that DAP DAC "bit perfect" support can be added.

@maxmp The concept applies not only for DAPs specifically, but also for those using their phone connected by USB to external DAC systems. Depending on the device, this likely requires the use of an OTG adapter. But this opens up the use of PA to those with these sytems, and not limiting it to headphones or casting. Since these external DACs can manage the sample rates, many prefer the idea of having this "bit perfect" model.

[bertlmike]

On 7/2/2023 at 8:53 AM, Fatih ALPTEKİN said:

About Poweramp... Amazing flawless interface and rock solid stability with this much features can not be developed by anyone else on earth now.

On the other hand if you have a moderate iem, a decent ear can easily feel the texture loss of audio because of resampling even if it is only upsamling.

I just go to uapp, hiby, fiio to feel that "texture", listen few songs with great relief. After few tracks jumping, library searching etc i turn back to my lovely Poweramp with a frustration of usability. When i start Poweramp again i need that "texture"...

As i said earlier, none of above apps developers can reach poweramps amazing process on usability. Poweramp is far more close to be the "complete" player.

As a side note please don't underestimate "unstable" decisions of audiophile community like spending gross money just to try some headgear 😊

I could not agree more! This is exactly how I feel. I also would consider making this an in-app purchase for the audiophile community.

[andrewilley]

1 hour ago, bertlmike said:

I could not agree more! This is exactly how I feel. I also would consider making this an in-app purchase for the audiophile community.

Purely out of interest, how much would you be prepared to pay if there were an option for a paid plug-in module of some sort?

Andre

[Fitzian]

Only reason why I'd be scared of in-app purchases for this, is that the mere presence of in-app purchases may place strict requirements to use Google Play's billing system for said in-app purchases. (How this works for other brand/region specific app stores, is unknown to me).

Unless I'm wholly mistaken, my hunch is it will get messy. You have several means to access the Poweramp license at present: uni version from website, Google Play Store and others. I don't know how or if you're allowed to offer in-app purchases by such varied means?

Anyone with clarifying knowledge, do tell.

 

That being said, anywhere from $5-10 would be completely valid, IMHO.

[MotleyG]

9 hours ago, andrewilley said:

Purely out of interest, how much would you be prepared to pay if there were an option for a paid plug-in module of some sort?

Seems most other players that tout their focus on "Hi Res" or bit perfect type models run anywhere from $10 (Neutron, UAPP) on the Android side, and $25+ for some iOS players (BTR AMP, Ever Play, MyuRa, KaiserTone, VOX).

So versus Poweramp's $5 base price, it is reasonable that $5-$10 makes sense. Depending of course on the level of what this would support. On the Android side, Neutron and UAPP seem to be the go-to apps that most choose when looking to get the native support being discussed here. I think the higher premium on the iOS side is more about the ROI, with the limited number of users versus the development time to get around Apple's unnecessary technical roadblocks for such a thing.

[bertlmike]

10 hours ago, andrewilley said:

Purely out of interest, how much would you be prepared to pay if there were an option for a paid plug-in module of some sort?

Andre

I think between $10-$15 would certainly not be unreasonable. 

[andrewilley]

@MotleyG Bear in mind that not every purchaser of the app would be willing to purchase such an in-app extra. So while Neutron/UAPP are taking that higher fee from every user, in PA's case an in-app purchase might only be wanted by a tiny fraction of the overall historical userbase - maybe a couple of thousand, it's hard to say. So months and months of development costs for such a downloadable add-on (e.g. a hard-coded DAC driver which gets around Android limitations) would need to be covered by that number of paying users.

Andre

[Fitzian]

Charge $20 to early adopters of it, then! If you want it early pay more.

(...)So months and months of development(...)

In cases where a DAP and its onboard DAC already supports all sample rates (and Poweramp appropriately switches to said sample rate, rather than them just being "selectable" but never actually utilized), I'd consider that kind of bit-perfect mode case more or less immune to that "blood sweat and tears" argument.

If you've got any of a handful of dongle DACs, a hefty desktop DAC fed by USB, and some phone that doesn't even allow USB output properly, getting support for that kind of bit-perfect mode seems more like a "months and months" scenario to actually get right, and would be more justifying of a greater premium than the DAP case.

 

[MotleyG]

6 hours ago, andrewilley said:

Bear in mind that not every purchaser of the app would be willing to purchase such an in-app extra. So while Neutron/UAPP are taking that higher fee from every user, in PA's case an in-app purchase might only be wanted by a tiny fraction of the overall historical userbase - maybe a couple of thousand, it's hard to say. So months and months of development costs for such a downloadable add-on (e.g. a hard-coded DAC driver which gets around Android limitations) would need to be covered by that number of paying users.

@andrewilley I’m not arguing for or against any level of fee. It is more about what the market would bear to be able to charge. Like any product, too high of a price may alienate all but a few select diehard fans and minimize the return. At the right price (what that might be???) you would get an ideal number of users to sign on and maximize the best potential return.

Either way I don’t see this yielding nearly the same number of users that have paid for the current PA unlocker. Heck, even at just $5 there are constant requests for the app to be unlocked for free. Plus look at how many users refuse to pay a buck or two for the advanced skins, or the playlist manager that @flyingdutchman created.

For those Android audio apps, they must have settled into those prices based on where they saw the most return. But the Android user base seems less tolerant to higher priced apps. The iOS apps on the other hand seem to charge more, …because they can. I have both types of devices, and other than the app’s UI and library management, the end result for the audio itself is about the same.

I’m in support of this tiered fee model, as I firmly believe this is a development step from the base version of Poweramp that is well deserving of the additional value. And I would think most that have asked for it would say the same. Remember, these are the same people that spend a ridiculous amount of extra dough on their hardware devices, headphones, and external DAC and home audio systems. I am sure that whatever reasonable cost is set, those that want it will pay. In my most humble opinion.😄

[Mountain Man]

On 7/19/2023 at 2:07 PM, andrewilley said:

@MotleyG Bear in mind that not every purchaser of the app would be willing to purchase such an in-app extra. So while Neutron/UAPP are taking that higher fee from every user, in PA's case an in-app purchase might only be wanted by a tiny fraction of the overall historical userbase - maybe a couple of thousand, it's hard to say. So months and months of development costs for such a downloadable add-on (e.g. a hard-coded DAC driver which gets around Android limitations) would need to be covered by that number of paying users.

Andre

Adding the ability for player output to match the source file would require "months and months" of development time?  Really?

However, I will say that any attempt to gouge existing customers by charging extra for this feature will not likely go over well.

Edited August 26, 2023 by Mountain Man

[MotleyG]

2 hours ago, Mountain Man said:

Adding the ability for player output to match the source file would require "months and months" of development time?  Really?

However, I will say that any attempt to gouge existing customers by charging extra for this feature will not likely go over well.

I am not a developer and couldn’t start to guess how or why development of the desired “No Resample/Bit Perfect” option may take months, days, weeks, or years.

But I would suggest this is a far more functional feature that falls in line with the sound quality foundation of Poweramp then the lyrics options that seemed to have consumed most of the development over the past six months. And this was added without cost.

I do feel it is a worthwhile value for many, but can’t quantify that scientifically. But compared to other apps that offer that level of audio playback, Poweramp would definitely cost far less than those.

So there must be a balance that would be reasonable. But please, move on from the unending requests for more and more lyric features that don’t add anything to Poweramp’s sound features. These aren’t a paid-for feature either.

 

[maxmp]

@MotleyG I guess majority of USB DACs may work out of box (this feature is for USB DACs and some DAPs only), workarounds for that 20% of DACs/DAPs which won't work will take a time and resources. As for BT output/3.5 output/3.5 analog USB dongles - bit perfect is technically not possible. 

There will be a possibility to vote for and support the specific development tasks for Poweramp and Poweramp Equalizer. If voted for, this feature will certainly have a light.

[MotleyG]

17 hours ago, maxmp said:

@MotleyG I guess majority of USB DACs may work out of box (this feature is for USB DACs and some DAPs only), workarounds for that 20% of DACs/DAPs which won't work will take a time and resources. As for BT output/3.5 output/3.5 analog USB dongles - bit perfect is technically not possible.

Hi @maxmp thanks for the personal reply. It is understood this feature has some limitations for full use, based on the device. I think most that have requested it understand the benefit and that is what they are seeking. I am one that is patiently hoping to see it come to light some day as the one feature in my case that limits my home use in some applications. On the go it is a favorite though. Thanks for sharing. 

Edited August 27, 2023 by MotleyG

[maxmp]

@MotleyG what DAC or DAP do you use now? Is it limited when used with the current Poweramp builds?

[MotleyG]

14 hours ago, maxmp said:

@MotleyG what DAC or DAP do you use now? Is it limited when used with the current Poweramp builds?

For my DAP, I use an iBasso DX160 most of the time. It can natively supports up to 32/384. Similar DAPs can do the same or better. I believe the flagship iBasso models in the DX300 range are 32/768.

Poweramp supports selecting up to the maximum range, but that forces resampling of everything with the current implementation. So when several CD rips are played that are 16/44.1 there is resampling taking place rather than letting the DAC convert at the expected resolution.

I use both my phone and DAP as sources for other DACs as well. My home theatre runs off an older Pioneer Elite SC-79 that has a very warm USC-DAC that supports up to 24/192. And a TEAC 500 system that uses a 32/768 DAC. These all display the incoming streaming details, and are always fixed to whatever Poweramp is set to. Other apps on the same device allow the file rate to pass through but don’t have the UI to make library browsing as elegant as PA.

[Anmol Kakkar]

I have been a user of Poweramp player for 10+ years now but ever since I started using the FiiO BTR7 DAC and coming across the bit perfect mode in the HiBY Music player (which is offered for free in it), I haven't turned back to Poweramp given the sheer difference in audio quality and performance of using that mode. It really does make a difference and would really hope it makes it to Poweramp someday as it really is one of the best players out there albeit missing 1-2 features like such. Hope it sees light of the days soon now.

[l4kr]

Just market High-Res audio as "Bitperfect", remove all resampling options, add a bit of bass, and boom, people will be blown away with "Bitperfect audio quality" from Poweramp. Easy solution.

 

[andrewilley]

56 minutes ago, l4kr said:

Just market High-Res audio as "Bitperfect", remove all resampling options, add a bit of bass, and boom, people will be blown away with "Bitperfect audio quality" from Poweramp. Easy solution.

 

Ah, the "Emperor's New Audio Player" marketing method...

Andre

[MotleyG]

4 hours ago, l4kr said:

Just market High-Res audio as "Bitperfect", remove all resampling options, add a bit of bass, and boom, people will be blown away with "Bitperfect audio quality" from Poweramp. Easy solution.

No resampling would be a great start in Hi-Res output mode. However “Add a bit of bass,” or any other DSP effects, would be the polar opposite of blowing people away. A switch to disable all effects, including the EQ and any DSP, would be ideal. At least this would output music faithful to the original except for the volume level.

To truly have a “Bit Perfect” output for those using capable Android devices and external DACs, even the volume should optionally be selectable to have a variable or fixed level digital coax or USB output.

if you don’t need either, then don’t enable them. Even make the initial default for both to be off during setup. But at least make these an option in Poweramp.

[maxmp]

@MotleyG that only possible with the attached DACs (at least in form of some hi-res USB-dongle) preferable with the hardware volume control. Also it will work for some DAPs. Not possible for standard Android outputs (3.5/normal dongles/BT) anyway.

Nevertheless this feature is planned, though, based on experience with other Android players supporting USB DACs, it will never work for all of them (USB DACs).

[w3wilkes]

On 11/6/2023 at 4:44 PM, andrewilley said:

Ah, the "Emperor's New Audio Player" marketing method...

Andre

Now that's funny! And I totally agree.

[Mountain Man]

On 11/6/2023 at 5:47 PM, l4kr said:

Just market High-Res audio as "Bitperfect", remove all resampling options, add a bit of bass, and boom, people will be blown away with "Bitperfect audio quality" from Poweramp. Easy solution.

 

I suppose that might fool the ignorant, but those of us who don't want our music artificially bass boosted and have the means to see what the current bit rate our device is actually outputting would drop Poweramp in a heartbeat and never look back.

Edited December 16, 2023 by Mountain Man

[LA2A]

Would love to see this. I guess I fall into the bit-better over bit-perfect camp. No resampling would make Poweramp perfect.

I'll add my vote once my account is allowed to do so.

[andrewilley]

@LA2A I think a lot of people would be happy with an automatic output-follows-source-frequency mode - as far as Android hardware or DACs allow anyway. Attempting to be completely 'bit-perfect' would effectively mean that Poweramp would just become a data copier, a middle-man for transferring content byte-by-byte from an audio file directly to an external DAC.

Similarly, forcing the final output to match with 24-bit or 32-bit content would ultimately be pretty pointless too, as all of PA's internal audio processing is handled using 32-bit float anyway (with 64-bit float used for DSP/EQ work) so it will already have been modified from the original source data.

Andre