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Bit Perfect Mode!


Larethio

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Resampling currently is the single biggest issue I have with the app. Having a no-resample mode in Poweramp is something I'd kill for right now and is something that USB Audio Player Pro executes flawlessly on almost any device.

 

By no-resample I mean when the output option automatically sets the sample rate to the same value as that of the playing music file.

i.e. 44.1kHz songs are output at 44.1kHz, 96kHz songs are output at 96kHz.

 

Currently, Poweramp will always resample regardless of the music's sample rate.

i.e. 44.1kHz -> 48kHz, 96kHz -> 48kHz (assuming output option's sample rate is set to auto or to a fixed value).

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  • 1 month later...
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  • 4 weeks later...

Hello 2023!

"Output follow source formatting" would be desirable than bit-perfect imo. Then again it would be awesome if both be implemented as an option.

Also, does having an "exclusive dac access" (like Fiio) function bypass global sound effects like DTS sound? Mine always resample at the end of the chain regardless of using internal or usb dac.

Cheers!

 

Screenshot_20230125-195125.jpg

Screenshot_20230125-200939.jpg

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  • 1 month later...

C'mon, this is the only feature this app need to be better than the other audiophile appsC'mon, this is the only feature this app need to be better than the other audiophile apps. Please add the no resampling and bit perfect modes, mainly for USB DACs. But for built-in DAC too if it's possible. 

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@Raul G. As Max has said, bit-perfect is almost impossible to apply to an Android device unless you physically hard-code the signal to a specific USB DAC. As soon as you introduce Android audio paths, a volume control, or EQ, or Replay Gain, or a host of other features, then you've lost bit-perfect.

A no-resampling mode probably stands more of a chance, but so many devices (e.g. Samsung) can't reliably set arbitrary frequency and bit-depth settings that it would probably turn out to be more of a placebo effect anyway. It would tick a nice little box in the spec sheet, but be wildly inconsistent in the wild.

Andre

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@andrewilley Well, sending the raw audio signal to a USB DAC would be great, that's why dongle DAC exist.

But, "no resampling" is necessary, no matter if the signal is not true "bit perfect" due to volume adjustment or because of the DSP (eq). But this app at least needs an option to respect the music sample rate. I don't know how much work it takes, but I'm willing to pay up to 2 bucks extra and I think many who expect these player features are too.

But, as many already mentioned, with these features, this player would be perfect, it would be the top of audiophile players, so @maxmp. Make it real, we've begged for this feature for years.

 

And just to add, the new widgets are excellent, very cool.

Edited by Raul G.
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5 hours ago, Raul G. said:

But this app at least needs an option to respect the music sample rate. I don't know how much work it takes, but I'm willing to pay up to 2 bucks extra and I think many who expect these player features are too.

It probably wouldn't take an awful lot of work to add a feature to switch the processing modes so there is no frequency re-sampling necessary within Poweramp. However whether the Android device could actually deliver a potentially random signal to the analogue stage is much less certain. Even now a lot of devices won't honour the signal provided to them if the user selects some of the existing high-res Output modes.

I don't think Max has plans to spend the time writing device-specific code to directly access the firmware of each external USB DAC though, but he could answer that better than me. 

Integer bit-depth will never be perfectly preserved by the way, as PA's internal audio engine uses (I think) 32-bit or 64-bit floating point maths and then converts it back down to the chosen integer value for output. But again, Max could confirm that in more detail.

Andre 

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1 hour ago, andrewilley said:

... to spend the time writing device-specific code to directly access the firmware of each external USB DAC though

I don't think there is the need to write device-specific code, this is what is written on the UAPP Player (the one I use when listening with an external DAC) web-page:
"When connecting an Android phone or tablet to a USB DAC, USB Audio Player PRO will unleash the full power of the DAC, by using our custom developed USB audio driver. This bypasses the Android audio system completely, meaning that Android's limitations regarding bit resolution and sample rate (16-bit/48kHz) are made irrelevant and high quality audio streams are fed directly to the DAC, making playback up to 32-bit at 384kHz possible (depending on the DAC capabilities) or even DSD."

Of course, I don't know how hard could be to write such an USB audio driver ...

Edited by code
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That all comes down to whether Max feels it's worthwhile spending what would likely be a considerable amount of time and effort to write a custom USB driver or drivers (not sure if all USB-DACs can be directly driven using the exact same code?) in order to be able to tick a box for what probably amounts to a pretty small fraction of users, albeit vocal ones.

Andre

 

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@andrewilley I tried to use android phone + UAPP and Neutron with few DACs I have and at the time of trying (a year ago) the experience was awful (random disconnections, permanent Android vs player conflicts over device, silence instead of audio, etc).

This experience shows me the fact that using the standard Android drivers for that is the way to do it. And the minor number of broken firmwares (not being able to handle usb dacs in hi-res) is not a motivation. 

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@maxmp One thing in this thread that I do think might be worthwhile considering though is adding an option in the Hi-Res settings of "Attempt to match Output Frequency to Source File". Clearly it would need a disclaimer underneath saying that this will break crossfade/gapless/etc playback, may cause brief inter-track noise, and even after all that the final output could be overridden by particular Android devices/firmwares anyway. In short, PA could do its best to stay consistent internally, but the rest is up to luck and Android. :)

At least it would be a concession to those who feel this is a significant feature lacking in Poweramp - and to be honest, any final down-sampling caused by Android would be no worse than what can happen at the moment anyway.

Andre

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@andrewilley yes I have this in the backlog, but I do not have ETA for this change yet. This is technically possible for Poweramp. Obviously if sample rate/format is changed, no crossfade/gapless, but these options still continue to work within same album/folder/list for the same track sample rate/format.

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@maxmp Yes, clearly any tracks with the same sample rate could still use crossfade/gapless/etc, as the frequency would not be changing from one track to the next. That would cover most albums certainly, as the content would very likely be using the same encoding throughout. Any issues would manifest themselves more with shuffling, playlist listening, etc - but I think the no-resampling requesters would accept that as a necessary compromise for what they want, and they'd be presented with a disclaimer anyway.

As long as it's now in the to-do list anyway, even without a medium-term ETA, that's better than ruling it out.

Andre

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@maxmp well, I don't know how was it a year ago, but, at least in my phone (redmi note 9s), UAPP works fine, and I have a custom rom (it works fine with stock rom too); I mean, the playing is smooth, no disconnections or anything. But the app interface is not the best and is a bit slow, that's true. 

So, is not possible an option to ask the user to allow direct connection to the external DAC? Like this app does. Sure, it would need some kind of driver, but wouldn't be possible some kind of general driver for external DACs, I remember that I read that new USB C ports have advenanges over old micro USB connectors, so, it should be easier. 

The DAC is HIBY FC3.

 Screenshot_20230310-085943.thumb.png.b187067420d2e023fd1c51cbbb84fdeb.pngScreenshot_20230310-084225.thumb.png.75448e19fe2c2bc3b9756841485bdf02.png

Edited by Raul G.
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@Raul G. on the phones, firmware may fight over usb audio device, e.g. Android may want to use it when incoming call happens or other audio routing event happens.

Also imagine next day Poweramp has it like on your screenshot. We’ll be immediately flooded with posts like Poweramp breaks my headset - I can’t call and hear no sound in games!;-)

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 3/10/2023 at 5:21 AM, maxmp said:

@andrewilley yes I have this in the backlog, but I do not have ETA for this change yet. This is technically possible for Poweramp. Obviously if sample rate/format is changed, no crossfade/gapless, but these options still continue to work within same album/folder/list for the same track sample rate/format.

I'm really happy to hear it's at least being seriously considered in the pipeline. Thank you for posting about it.

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40 minutes ago, bit perfect customer said:

I'm also desperately waiting for bit perfect mode. 

You will have a long wait I'm afraid. "Bit perfect" simply isn't possible within the Android audio framework. Some devices may be able to support a no-resampling option though (i.e. output attempts to follow source frequency) but even that is far from a 100% reliable possibility. Please read through the previous messages in this and other similar threads.

Andre

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  • 3 weeks later...
On 3/10/2023 at 8:21 AM, maxmp said:

@andrewilley yes I have this in the backlog, but I do not have ETA for this change yet. This is technically possible for Poweramp. Obviously if sample rate/format is changed, no crossfade/gapless, but these options still continue to work within same album/folder/list for the same track sample rate/format.

Well, this is certainly more promising than the hard "no" we've gotten earlier in response to this request.  I've stopped using Poweramp because of its inability to automatically play files at their native sample rate, but if this feature is added, then I'll never use anything but Poweramp because I love everything else about the software.

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  • 1 month later...
On 4/8/2023 at 11:38 PM, Mountain Man said:

Well, this is certainly more promising than the hard "no" we've gotten earlier in response to this request.  I've stopped using Poweramp because of its inability to automatically play files at their native sample rate, but if this feature is added, then I'll never use anything but Poweramp because I love everything else about the software.

Instead of complaining here it is better to take this to the Google and Android Devs, those schmucks should work on this issue, not the third party devs

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  • 1 month later...

About Poweramp... Amazing flawless interface and rock solid stability with this much features can not be developed by anyone else on earth now.

On the other hand if you have a moderate iem, a decent ear can easily feel the texture loss of audio because of resampling even if it is only upsamling.

I just go to uapp, hiby, fiio to feel that "texture", listen few songs with great relief. After few tracks jumping, library searching etc i turn back to my lovely Poweramp with a frustration of usability. When i start Poweramp again i need that "texture"...

As i said earlier, none of above apps developers can reach poweramps amazing process on usability. Poweramp is far more close to be the "complete" player.

As a side note please don't underestimate "unstable" decisions of audiophile community like spending gross money just to try some headgear 😊

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 5/13/2023 at 1:49 PM, Yash O said:

Instead of complaining here it is better to take this to the Google and Android Devs, those schmucks should work on this issue, not the third party devs

I'm not sure what you're talking about.  There are a number of other audio players for Android that are able to automatically set the playback sample rate based on the source file, so it has nothing to do with Google or Android and everything to do with the developer of Poweramp stubbornly refusing to even entertain the idea of adding this feature to his software until recently.

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