Lazarus Posted September 6, 2023 Share Posted September 6, 2023 I've been using Poweramp Pro for over 10 years. It is by far the best music player in the app store. I only have one issue! A few months back I purchased a USB DAC to listen to lossless flac music. Unfortunately the USB DAC isn't usable with Poweramp. The reason being is that the sound is really low, even at max volume. As a result, I had to resort to using other music player apps like "USB Audio Player Pro", which does use their own exclusive driver. As a paying user, I'm requesting for the developer to add exclusive driver support. Thank you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andrewilley Posted September 6, 2023 Share Posted September 6, 2023 Without knowing the hardware in question, that would be impossible to answer. I have a cheap Ugreen USB-C to 3.5mm DAC which works fine with my new Samsung A54-5G for example. Well, it works fine apart from an annoying very low level hiss in the analogue output stage, which is only really audible when I'm listening late at night with the audio playback volume set down to about 2 (of about 100 steps). Going to have to investigate an alternative. Andre Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fitzian Posted September 6, 2023 Share Posted September 6, 2023 Wild guess, this has something to do with DVC or 'No DVC Headroom Gain" option, at least for OP's chosen output method (they did not specify...) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lazarus Posted September 8, 2023 Author Share Posted September 8, 2023 I have a Helm Bolt DAC/AMP. I already went through the troubleshooting. Checked all the settings, nothing changes. The volume is still low. It's the same for pretty much all music players in the app store. Note: I'm using a Galaxy S23 Ultra. I also had the same issue with the Galaxy S22 Ultra. About 3 music player apps in the Google app store support my Helms DAC with no problem. My issue is I don't like their user interface. I prefer Poweramp's user interface. All the Poweramp developer has to do is add support for an exclusive driver that would allow my DAC to work properly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andrewilley Posted September 9, 2023 Share Posted September 9, 2023 How "low" is the volume? Could something like ReplayGain (which generally reduces volume in most cases) be affecting it? Or also try enabling or disabling DVC for that output method. But you don't want to push the internal gain in PA up too far in case you introduce distortion or clipping in other parts of the audio chain. But if most other apps produce the same volume, I would suggest that Helm's Android drivers are the culprit, not the players. I can't say for sure, but I would think it's rather unlikely that Max would consider spending the time writing a custom driver to correct issues with one specific company's hardware. Andre Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxmp Posted September 11, 2023 Share Posted September 11, 2023 It can be also DVC issue, so try No DVC option for the appropriate Settings / Audio / Output / <your output> / <your device> settings page. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andrewilley Posted September 11, 2023 Share Posted September 11, 2023 Apple's USB-C to 3.5mm DAC adapter also has the same problem. Whether it's by EU interference, lower voltage levels, or just Apple being Apple, I found its audio output was about 25dB lower than anther comparable adapter (UGreen). Going to try Samsung's own in-line adapter next, there's gotta be one out there that gives a decent output level but with no background hiss. Andre Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ibrahimbo101 Posted September 13, 2023 Share Posted September 13, 2023 (edited) On 9/11/2023 at 10:16 AM, andrewilley said: Apple's USB-C to 3.5mm DAC adapter also has the same problem. Whether it's by EU interference, lower voltage levels, or just Apple being Apple, I found its audio output was about 25dB lower than anther comparable adapter (UGreen). Going to try Samsung's own in-line adapter next, there's gotta be one out there that gives a decent output level but with no background hiss. Andre Sadly it's a known issue android not able to fetch the driver correctly and directly unless you are rooted messing with ALSA at linux level, it can fetch dacs made for these phones or some brands standards normally tho like samsung or pixel's dongle but google made some implementation in kernel here in pixel for android https://android.googlesource.com/kernel/google-modules/aoc/+/32b45e2e08bcb3b6306ec9796d1f50ef44d0d514 https://www.xda-developers.com/pixel-6-direct-usb-access-android-12l/ This what uapp and other players using for now having such an implementation for Poweramp max doesnt see it a convenient way to go he mentioned there is new apis he will look at so i hope we get to see in the near future Cuz these app communicates with dac and sets vol to max once you exit the driver remains mounted at same vol till replugged again and the request is done by app triggering some system dialog which is not convenient either as its not systemwide implementation but another trick to go around About apple dacs its already reported there is some dirty fix i tried to compile kernel for but it didnt work using the quirks mixer https://issuetracker.google.com/issues/242221770 One of testers in audiosciencereview showed that with this implementation it only works in the app that have direct access at 100% voltage and once switched to other apps around 90% voltage Still better than the default 50% So i hope users to be patient about it if the new apis Max has mentioned serve us any good would be better than doing the job twice and waste time cuz there is around 10secs of no audio between initializing direct access to dac and might throw some crackling here and there in some apps and in some not Edited September 13, 2023 by Ibrahimbo101 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rachidulric Posted October 17, 2023 Share Posted October 17, 2023 (edited) I bought a new Galaxy A54, and somewhat Poweramp doesn't do Hi-Res in both my USB headphones (AKG - Original, worked at 192Khz before with my A30) and another headphone jack one via a USB to Headphone Jack adapter. It defaults to 16 bit 48Khz, in both. Any way I can fix this? Edited October 17, 2023 by Rachidulric Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andrewilley Posted October 17, 2023 Share Posted October 17, 2023 It's very dependent on the DAC. I've got an A54 too, and have been trying to find a DAC without any low-level hiss. The ones I've tried so far are all meant to support 24-bit 96kHz, some worked at that res and some didn't. Samsung's own didn't in fact. Andre Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rachidulric Posted November 2, 2023 Share Posted November 2, 2023 On 10/17/2023 at 5:19 PM, andrewilley said: It's very dependent on the DAC. I've got an A54 too, and have been trying to find a DAC without any low-level hiss. The ones I've tried so far are all meant to support 24-bit 96kHz, some worked at that res and some didn't. Samsung's own didn't in fact. Andre God, just bought the official Samsung adapter, and while the sound is crystal clear now, it's stuck in 16bit/48Khz and it's hurting me lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tp3n6-1 Posted December 23, 2023 Share Posted December 23, 2023 I am having the EXACT same problem that @Lazarus is having. Same DAC even, i haven't been able to find a workaround at all and have tested with multiple galaxy s23 ultras as my friend has the same phone. I really hope this is something that could be fixed if possible, otherwise i guess i just gotta buy a new DAC. Never gonna switch off Poweramp tho lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andrewilley Posted December 23, 2023 Share Posted December 23, 2023 S23 should be fine for hi-res. Depending on your Android version, you may want to stick to 192kHz and below if you want to use DVC though. I also noted somewhat lower volume with 384kHz too, so another reason to avoid that before Android 14. You may want to try AAudio output too, works well for me on my A54 anyway. Andre Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tp3n6-1 Posted December 23, 2023 Share Posted December 23, 2023 Unbelievable that a flagship phone would have this issue. I even tried using USB Audio Player PRO and that got rid of the volume issue because that app uses a different way to control the DAC i believe. Oh well. I tested what you described andrew, and even so it is still very quiet. Guess ill just wait Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxmp Posted December 24, 2023 Share Posted December 24, 2023 Some support will be eventually added as the idea here is voted, but it's not even of first page of requests - please vote (https://forum.powerampapp.com/ideas/idea/40-bit-perfectno-resample-mode-for-usb-dacsdaps/ ). I would add that this kind of usb "driver" solution (it's not a driver) is not a silver bullet. It won't work for all USB devices + Android phones. I would say that native Android DAC support works with larger number of devices vs any of the players utilizing libusb, just because Android uses narrower subset of DAC features. For example some Pixel devices may just disallow direct DAC access completely. Or particular DAC won't work on Samsung OneUI 5.x, not matter what, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dillot Posted February 28 Share Posted February 28 On 12/25/2023 at 3:25 AM, maxmp said: Some support will be eventually added as the idea here is voted, but it's not even of first page of requests - please vote (https://forum.powerampapp.com/ideas/idea/40-bit-perfectno-resample-mode-for-usb-dacsdaps/ ). I would add that this kind of usb "driver" solution (it's not a driver) is not a silver bullet. It won't work for all USB devices + Android phones. I would say that native Android DAC support works with larger number of devices vs any of the players utilizing libusb, just because Android uses narrower subset of DAC features. For example some Pixel devices may just disallow direct DAC access completely. Or particular DAC won't work on Samsung OneUI 5.x, not matter what, etc. Oops! We could not locate the item you are trying to view. Error code: 2I161/1 why it's happening?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andrewilley Posted February 28 Share Posted February 28 2 hours ago, Dillot said: why it's happening?? Perhaps you didn't read the voting conditions: Andre Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wong Waras Posted August 21 Share Posted August 21 On 2/28/2024 at 6:24 PM, andrewilley said: Perhaps you didn't read the voting conditions: Andre I see... No wonder the page won't load properly after I signed up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ikonomov Posted October 25 Share Posted October 25 On 12/24/2023 at 6:25 PM, maxmp said: I would add that this kind of usb "driver" solution (it's not a driver) is not a silver bullet. It won't work for all USB devices + Android phones. I would say that native Android DAC support works with larger number of devices vs any of the players utilizing libusb, just because Android uses narrower subset of DAC features. For example some Pixel devices may just disallow direct DAC access completely. Or particular DAC won't work on Samsung OneUI 5.x, not matter what, etc. I would like to voice my agreement that this "driver" solution is not really a solution that has any practical uses. Before switching to Poweramp I've used Neutron because of this specific feature as well as USB Audio Player PRO. After an OS update on my phone once the player is given lower level access to the DAC it effectively blocks any sound coming from other apps from being sent to the DAC. Before the update Neutron used to be able to release control of the DAC when there is an audio request coming from other apps, but even then it was buggy and sometimes it worked and something it didn't, and when it didn't it required the dongle to be reconnected. After using this feature for about a year my view is that it is an absolute mess when used on a device like a phone and it only makes sense when used on a portable music player that has the one functionality to play music. At the core of this discussion is the logic that it's best to avoid resampling or maybe even play the files in "bit perfect" mode. Given the fact that Poweramp now has the super powerful PEQ functionality with EQ correction curves built right in, I think this "bit perfect" mode makes no sense whatsoever. The ability to have PEQ would be useful even when using studio monitors to tune their sound to the room acoustics. Once DSP is enabled, the audio will be increased to 32bit depth. Here are the settings that I use to allow me get the best audio quality out of Poweramp: Enable EQ with PEQ correction curve for my headphones Enable SoX resampling (95% cut off frequency ratio) and output to 48 kHz (to avoid Android OS resampling) or higher if using files with higher sampling rate to avoid resampling altogether If the DAC supports it, output at float32 or 24 bit depth, otherwise enable shibata dither and output to 16 bit Would it be better if I can output 44.1 kHz 32 bit without dithering or resampling directly to the DAC? Yes, theoretically it would be, but in practice it wouldn't make a difference except allow the app to consume slightly less power, insignificant for any modern phone. Edit: In fact just about the only purpose that this addition would surve would be to allow people to claim that Poweramp is able to output "high quality" audio for "high quality" ears. It's as valid of an argument as any to have this feature given that the additional maintenance would be justified, but based on Google's aggressive updates, I would bet that it won't be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MotleyG Posted October 25 Share Posted October 25 7 minutes ago, ikonomov said: Given the fact that Poweramp now has the super powerful PEQ functionality with EQ correction curves built right in, I think this "bit perfect" mode makes no sense whatsoever. 7 minutes ago, ikonomov said: Would it be better if I can output 44.1 kHz 32 bit without dithering or resampling directly to the DAC? Yes, theoretically it would be, but in practice it wouldn't make a difference except allow the app to consume slightly less power, insignificant for any modern phone. If you are using any kind of DSP, including PEQ, then there is no such thing as "bit perfect" as this already affects the original file integrity. Add as much EQ or other DSP as you wish and let Poweramp resample the output to whatever default the device accepts. This is what is currently happening anyhow. The whole point of the feature request for "no resampling" is to keep the file bit depth and sampling rate output to the DAC faithful to the original, and only have volume and potential tone controls in the preamplification stage after the DAC. This primarily applies to those with a completely separate DAC and headphone or amplified speaker system, or for a device specifically designed for premium audio with an internal hi-res DAC like the LG V-series of phones or most Android-based digital audio players. For those that have hi-res libraries with tracks purchased at 24bit/96kHz, 24/192, 32/384, or even various DSD rates, it matters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ikonomov Posted October 25 Share Posted October 25 (edited) 46 minutes ago, MotleyG said: For those that have hi-res libraries with tracks purchased at 24bit/96kHz, 24/192, 32/384, or even various DSD rates, it matters. I disagree. A properly mastered album at 44.1 kHz 16 bit is as good as it needs to be at the output device. If it's not properly mastered with well adjusted loudness then 32/384 won't save you since you'll hit the SNR limits of the recording equipment if needing to increase the volume too far (and human ears can't hear anything above 22 kHz). This last bit is worth repeating every time these numbers come up. 24/192 is useful for recording, that's it. Edit: I should elaborate further. 16 bit audio has a dynamic range of about 96 dB. That's enough for all music styles, but let's say maybe somebody can make an argument that more can be safely used for something like classical music, where the average level can be quite low, but then some parts can have more more dramatic impact if they are very loud exceeding 96 dB dynamic range. If they are short enough they won't result in hearing loss even if they are maybe up to 110 dB or even 120 dB, but I'm not really convinced that this is something that would be used on regular basis as a way to increase the enjoyment of music. It's a shame that Android currently seems to use 16 bit audio, but hopefully they increase that to 24 bit in the future so we can drop this discussion altogether. It does currently use a sampling rate of 48 kHz though (allowing music up to 24 kHz), which more than exceeds the upper limits of human hearing. Edited October 25 by ikonomov Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andrewilley Posted October 25 Share Posted October 25 I would add that there's also no point in getting too fussed about maintaining the source bit-depth (16-, 24-, 32-bit) either, as PA's internal DSP engine processes everything as 32/64 float anyway, so whatever fixed rate you choose to output will be a reduction in bit depth and a change from floating to fixed point. The one thing I can see the point of though is trying to avoid changing the fundamental frequency of the data samples, and thus faithfully passing 44.1k, 48k, 192k, etc along the whole audio path. Assuming your output device can adjust to all the rates you want to throw at if of course, and that you don't mind a bit of switching noise when the rate gets changed on the fly (when listening shuffled, or a playlist, for example). Andre Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ikonomov Posted October 26 Share Posted October 26 6 hours ago, andrewilley said: The one thing I can see the point of though is trying to avoid changing the fundamental frequency of the data samples, and thus faithfully passing 44.1k, 48k, 192k, etc along the whole audio path. Assuming your output device can adjust to all the rates you want to throw at if of course, and that you don't mind a bit of switching noise when the rate gets changed on the fly (when listening shuffled, or a playlist, for example). Yes, I agree, it would be nice to have this feature. Sadly when used it seems to run into issues when multiple apps need to be able to gain access to the audio engine, a problem that people will run into on regular basis given that most likely they are using the app on their phones. That for me is a much bigger issue than the on the fly sample rate switching. For the developer there is also the problem of having to maintain the additional code that's needed for proper DAC control. There is not doubt, it's better to avoid resampling, but with the ability to use the high quality transparent (I don't use it lightly, but it is) SoX resampler (it's absolutely fantastic that we have this functionality available) I think it's a small price to pay for having the better practical solution. I can understand why this feature is currently the most requested with three of the top requests all related to it, but I just wish that the discussion focuses on the limitations and the practical benefits of why somebody might want to not use this functionality even if it was available, rather than some theoretical benefit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MotleyG Posted October 26 Share Posted October 26 (edited) 15 hours ago, ikonomov said: A properly mastered album at 44.1 kHz 16 bit is as good as it needs to be at the output device. If it's not properly mastered with well adjusted loudness then 32/384 won't save you since you'll hit the SNR limits of the recording equipment if needing to increase the volume too far (and human ears can't hear anything above 22 kHz) That's your opinion and you are welcome to it. But don't try to convince others using these comparisons when they aren't related. Sample rates above 48kHz have nothing to do with the range you can hear. It is how many digital slices are made to the original analog signal to create finer resolution. And for a similar reason 24 and 32 bit depth is used to create a higher degree of accuracy to describe each one of those sample slices. When these are passed through a DAC to be returned to an analog format for listening, these finer details are what create a more accurate picture of the original music. The reason that the 44.1kHz sample rate was chosen back when CD was introduced was certainly about the human hearing range, but not because of how the music itself was being converted. It was about the noise that the DACs made, and making sure that noise was pushed outside of the frequency response range the engineers wanted to get from CD. Then they added a very steep low pass filter above 20kHz to kill the DAC noise that occurred at 22.05kHz (at half the 44.1k sample rate). Newer DACs today have different ways of handling the digital signal and the noise issues are almost long forgotten. Technology has advanced well beyond the limits of 16/44.1 and are certainly affordable enough for every day use. If the studios now insist on using these rates and higher for recording, why wouldn't you want the same if it was available to you? Edited October 26 by MotleyG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ikonomov Posted October 26 Share Posted October 26 (edited) 3 hours ago, MotleyG said: That's your opinion and you are welcome to it. But don't try to convince others using these comparisons when they aren't related. Sample rates above 48kHz have nothing to do with the range you can hear. It is how many digital slices are made to the original analog signal to create finer resolution. And for a similar reason 24 and 32 bit depth is used to create a higher degree of accuracy to describe each one of those sample slices. When these are passed through a DAC to be returned to an analog format for listening, these finer details are what create a more accurate picture of the original music. The reason that the 44.1kHz sample rate was chosen back when CD was introduced was certainly about the human hearing range, but not because of how the music itself was being converted. It was about the noise that the DACs made, and making sure that noise was pushed outside of the frequency response range the engineers wanted to get from CD. Then they added a very steep low pass filter above 20kHz to kill the DAC noise that occurred at 22.05kHz (at half the 44.1k sample rate). Newer DACs today have different ways of handling the digital signal and the noise issues are almost long forgotten. Technology has advanced well beyond the limits of 16/44.1 and are certainly affordable enough for every day use. If the studios now insist on using these rates and higher for recording, why wouldn't you want the same if it was available to you? Here is a video that explains why this idea about "more accurate picture" is not really the right way to understand what is happening when you increase the sample rate. There is also an explanation about the noise shaping filter, which you have described. I didn't want to get into why in practice it's 20 kHz and not 22 kHz as I didn't think it was relevant to the discussion and as you've said, the digital noise issue due to using bad filters is long forgotten. Studios nowadays insist on using high sampling rates and especially higher bit depth, but when recording. Recording here being the key word. The reason being is that it allows to have more flexibility during editing, and then once the songs are finalized they need be down-sampled anyways to whatever the media demands, 48 kHz 24 bit (standard used for video) or 44.1 kHz 16 bit for CDs and music. Many studios actually maintain 48 kHz all the way through production if that's what will be needed at the end. I see no harm in distributing music at 48 kHz 24 bit, I think that's pretty much the sweet spot which is likely why they've decided to adopt it for video. Hopefully they increase the default bit depth used in Android to 24 bit at some point, but once that happens I don't see a reason to look for more at that point. I also don't see any harm in keeping music at 96 kHz 24 bit and even higher if that's what people like to do. The problem comes later when we convince ourselves that we need to play those high resolution files at their original sampling rate and somebody like the developer of Poweramp has to put in a lot of work to make this hardware DAC implementation and commit to increased maintenance in the future. Although having said that, I must admit that the new model with the bonus features as additional in-app purchases is fantastic and for the right price maybe it can make sense and be a great way to add this functionality. I myself would love to have this additional functionality, given that it's toggable with a way to completely disable it and avoid any prompts when the DAC is plugged in. Still, I would like to maintain that it is a functionality that is not needed in order to enjoy high quality music and given the long list of other feature requests, I wish it was much lower in the list. Edited October 26 by ikonomov Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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