USB-C > 3.5mm adapters, low level hiss

[andrewilley]

It's very odd. Other USB-C adapters allow the inline buttons to work fine on the A54, and this adapter works fine on other devices. It's nothing to do with media apps per se, the volume buttons don't function in the Android homescreen either. 

Andre

[Loweaul]

21 hours ago, andrewilley said:

It's very odd. Other USB-C adapters allow the inline buttons to work fine on the A54, and this adapter works fine on other devices. It's nothing to do with media apps per se, the volume buttons don't function in the Android homescreen either. 

Andre

Yeah, strange enough, how about asking Max for something may work it out?

[andrewilley]

@maxmp This is not a Poweramp problem, but I don't suppose you happen to have an Samsung Galaxy A54 Android 13 (or maybe other very recent Samsung phone) and a Cirrus CS46L41 based USB-C DAC adapter (e.g. THIS ONE)  in your testing arsenal do you?

I just can't figure out why the inline headset buttons don't work at all for this specific combination of hardware. The DAC adapter dongle works fine with other (mainly older) devices, and other DAC adapters work fine on this phone. I do like the overall audio quality of this DAC dongle, but if the buttons can't work with my phone then it will have to go back.  

Andre

[Loweaul]

Well, looks like Max was too busy to take a look of this, I guess the activity logs may help if you could figure out how do we read a log, I don't know how to read it anyway 🥲.

Have you tried the other adapter via A54? they all work fine? If that so, I guess you should return or just stay like that, since I think if we don't activate passthrough, then losing button control from the adapter is not a big deal.

[andrewilley]

@Loweaul Yes, other basic USB-C adapter dongles (Ugreen, Samsung, Apple) allow the inline buttons to work fine on the A54. And this rather nicer sounding Cirrus CS46L41 based adapter works fine on other older USB-C devices (Samsung A40, Samsung A70, Asus tablet). It's nothing to do with media apps per se though, even the Vol+ and Vol- buttons don't function on the A54 homescreen either. It's very bizarre!

Andre

[andrewilley]

To follow up on this, I popped into a local phone dealership today to see how this Cirrus DAC dongle worked with other recent phones, just in case my A54 was actually faulty.

The headset cable inline buttons (Vol+, Vol-) worked perfectly on the sales assistant's own Oppo phone, and also on every live Samsung phone on the store's display EXCEPT for their own A54 5G. We tried with an A14 5G, A34 5G, Z-Fold5, Z-Flip5, S23, S23+, S23 Ultra. And I had already tried an A40 and A70 at home which were fine too. So basically every phone in Samsung's range is fine, except for the A54.

Andre

[Loweaul]

@andrewilley Well, sad to hear that, seems like is a specific issue with A54, could only send a email to Samsumg for a help.

[ihaspei]

i was thinking on buying a usb-c => jack 3.5mm adapter just to using it with an old stereo. i have a galaxy a54 too. so i was wondering if any adapter would be fine for this usage?

this hiss would exist with a cheap adapter? or is it just noticeable with headphones?

[andrewilley]

@ihaspei The hiss is usually present in the analogue outout stage, or as interference from poorly screened digital circuits. The Cirrus based one I mentioned above seemed far less nosy than some of the other cheap inline adapters, and it sounded pretty good for the £8 price, and you won't need inline buttons anyway. But for real hi-fi performance it might be worth looking at one of the higher end stand-alone box devices (Fiio, etc).

Andre

[ihaspei]

@andrewilley ohh get it, so even for a casual listener not too worry about hi-res quality would be better found some midrange adapter?

 

[Loweaul]

12 hours ago, ihaspei said:

@andrewilley ohh get it, so even for a casual listener not too worry about hi-res quality would be better found some midrange adapter?

 

I guess so, but here we're mainly talking about is the background hiss, if the the capacities of preventing the hiss between midrange and hi-res adapter do make a significant difference, then I would like to get the better one even for double price, but if it don't, the cheap one may be enough.

Since the differences of listening, or you could say the quality of sound, is highly depending on your earphones instead of the USB adapter.

Edited November 10, 2023 by Loweaul
Correction

[andrewilley]

It's a Signal-to-Noise ratio issue. The amplitude of low-level noise (hiss) that we're talking about here is only significant when the actual signal level is very low too (for example when listening on earphones at 5% volume) and thus the hiss become significant compared to the level of the music. If you can turn the output on the Android device up to a reasonable level, and then control the actual listening volume using the external amp, you'll never notice it at all. And the overall audio quality of these Chi-Fi adapters (I learned a new word when Googling this stuff!) is very good indeed for the price.

Andre

[Loweaul]

Yeah, right, the SNR issue, and issues with THD, DNR and other stuff, things we mostly care about them when purchase an amplifier. Strangely, when go for a adapter, we just care about the bit depth and frequenciey of sample🤣

Thanks to google, my first time knowing Chi-Fi, really cheap and well stuff, actually whatever the industry is, we have China,then we have everything we couldn't imagine😂

[Loweaul]

So I go for a further comparison with these adapters that we've mentioned before, and the true answer is the SNR issue, you already found the answer.

First one is the UGreen one, in the latest page in Taobao, it shows that it is based one BES3002, the SNR is 116dB.

Second one is MeiLan based on CX31993, the SNR is up to 124dB, no wonder this one is the most recommended one these year.

Third is my JA06 based on KT0200, SNR 103dB, and I'm testing it with the same approach, but this time I'm using a Hi-Fi in-ear earphone that I bought a few days ago, and still, I couldn't hear any hiss in the minimum sound level, not even I wrapped my head in the comforter.

Anyway, that's all of it, and it may be related with the THD as well, but if that so, the earphone would also be needed to consider. God, hope I'll be an expert in Acoustics next life🥲

[MotleyG]

35 minutes ago, Loweaul said:

So I go for a further comparison with these adapters that we've mentioned before, and the true answer is the SNR issue, you already found the answer.

If it was only this simple. There are several sonic measurements of these devices. It is the combination of these that yield the output signature that is often wildly differs. One may have a very low SNR, but only have low to moderate output levels. Some have better channel separation than others. And then there are the masking techniques that the cheaper ones use to disguise their short-comings, like 0-bit ot low output muting, etc. Even the headphones being used can influence this as they range from very low to very high impedance that can affect all of these dynamically.

Ultimately, like @andrewilley has already found, the best method is to try it and see if it meets your expectations. That is why there are just so many to choose from.

[andrewilley]

1 hour ago, Loweaul said:

the SNR issue, and issues with THD, DNR and other stuff, things we mostly care about them when purchase an amplifier. Strangely, when go for a adapter, we just care about the bit depth and frequenciey of sample

SNR, THD, etc are mostly measurements that apply to the final analogue portion of the system, the stage  that occurs after the binary stuff has have been converted to sound waves. Bit-depth and Frequency (in this context anyway) are more digital definitions.

Ironically, my next idea at the moment is to try a CX31993 based adapter, the USB-C variant of this: https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005006153816514.html. Wish me luck - if it sounds as good as the CS46L41, but the headset cable buttons work on my A54, I'll be quite happy. I'm steering clear of the CX-Pro banding, which I believe might also be manufactured by Tiandirenhe, as I wonder if that might have the same inline control issues as their CS-Pro?

Andre

[Loweaul]

13 hours ago, MotleyG said:

If it was only this simple. There are several sonic measurements of these devices. It is the combination of these that yield the output signature that is often wildly differs. One may have a very low SNR, but only have low to moderate output levels. Some have better channel separation than others. And then there are the masking techniques that the cheaper ones use to disguise their short-comings, like 0-bit ot low output muting, etc. Even the headphones being used can influence this as they range from very low to very high impedance that can affect all of these dynamically.

Ultimately, like @andrewilley has already found, the best method is to try it and see if it meets your expectations. That is why there are just so many to choose from.

Yep, nothing is better than testing it in real time, as you said the factors that it contains is really causing a chain reaction, shouldn't just focus on several digitals.

[Loweaul]

@andrewilley Tiandirenhe, well that's a brand I've never seen before, I could see a online store of it in Taobao, but just selling earphone and socks (yeah, socks), no signs of adapters. 

By the way, the CX31993 must be the best selling one in the market, a lot of products is based on this.

[andrewilley]

Yes, there seem to be a lot based on the CX31993 chipset, some with an extra MAX97220 chip quoted (no idea if that would be good or not).

There are also a lot based on the CS46L41 (which is what I got first, and have the strange inline button compatibility issue with the Galaxy A54.

It's hard to tell who actually makes (or at least designs) these things, as there are literally dozens of virtually identical looking products, many of which have no brand identification at all beyond the "CS-Pro" or "CX-Pro" labelling. So it's really hard to report this bug to anyone involved in the development process who might be able to actually do something about it, or rectify it for a newer release.

I hate returning products (waste of everyone's time and money) but unless you can try it first, you have no choice. 

Andre

[Loweaul]

23 hours ago, andrewilley said:

Yes, there seem to be a lot based on the CX31993 chipset, some with an extra MAX97220 chip quoted (no idea if that would be good or not).

There are also a lot based on the CS46L41 (which is what I got first, and have the strange inline button compatibility issue with the Galaxy A54.

It's hard to tell who actually makes (or at least designs) these things, as there are literally dozens of virtually identical looking products, many of which have no brand identification at all beyond the "CS-Pro" or "CX-Pro" labelling. So it's really hard to report this bug to anyone involved in the development process who might be able to actually do something about it, or rectify it for a newer release.

I hate returning products (waste of everyone's time and money) but unless you can try it first, you have no choice. 

Andre

Yeah, as far as we know is that these two different chips actually from two different companies, but hard to guess or tell the true manufacturer.

Anyway, if you would like to, trying CX31993 may not be a bad idea, but I still recommend the one with a least a brand on it, in case of malfunctioning again. 

The temptations of Chi-Fi producta are really entertaining, though.

[andrewilley]

Well I've ordered a CX31993 variant from Tiandirenhe as I really have no idea what constitutes a known "brand" in the Chi-Fi market. I decided against their version with an extra MAX97220 amplifier chip (more opportunity for noise floor issues, and I'm only driving 32ohm earbuds) so have ordered this one: https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005006224269385.html. So now another two week wait for it to come from China...

Andre

[Loweaul]

Yeah, so a "brand" in China basically means a licensed company with its own factory which means it produces products independently, this way the customers could have contacts with the company in order to get some solutions about product's issue, or returning the issued product for free, well, in China, returning is mostly free in 7 days after you receive the product. So the "product with a  big brand" I meant is some products from like MeiZu or FRANSUN or JCALLY, at least they got a package with producer name and contact information, further more,  a website of their own.

But this also means the selling price would be a bit higher than the product from just a manufacturer with no feedback strategy, which is we knew the products called Chi-Fi, low price and no feedbacks, in these case is Tiandirenhe.(天地人合, actually a idiom in Chinese, means that all the conditions are fitting just right.) 

Still, the temptation of Chi-Fi is really addictive, everybody like that, me too🤣, so let's hope the next one would turn out just fine.

Edited November 14, 2023 by Loweaul
Implementation

[andrewilley]

Well the CX31993 based USB-C DAC adapter arrived this morning, and having just done some night-time tests in a silent room I can confirm that there is no noticeable background noise at all, even when listening with volume set very low at 2/150, and also no noticeable switching noise when the amp stage triggers and shuts down. The three inline buttons work perfectly on my Galaxy A54, and the twisted-braid build quality seems good. There's a decent available maximum volume, much louder than I'm ever likely to want, and the overall quality seems pretty good too. High-res will go up to 384kHz/32-bit. Android detects the Output Device as "Synaptics HiFi Audio".

So finally an adapter I'm very happy with, and at £6.99 with free shipping from China it's about 30% lower than Samsung's own (very poor) adapter cable from Samsung or Amazon UK. https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005006224269385.html

Andre

[Loweaul]

7 hours ago, andrewilley said:

Well the CX31993 based USB-C DAC adapter arrived this morning, and having just done some night-time tests in a silent room I can confirm that there is no noticeable background noise at all, even when listening with volume set very low at 2/150, and also no noticeable switching noise when the amp stage triggers and shuts down. The three inline buttons work perfectly on my Galaxy A54, and the twisted-braid build quality seems good. There's a decent available maximum volume, much louder than I'm ever likely to want, and the overall quality seems pretty good too. High-res will go up to 384kHz/32-bit. Android detects the Output Device as "Synaptics HiFi Audio".

So finally an adapter I'm very happy with, and at £6.99 with free shipping from China it's about 30% lower than Samsung's own (very poor) adapter cable from Samsung or Amazon UK. https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005006224269385.html

Andre

So glad to see it finally end up well, now I think I would like to have one based on CX31993, anyway, I guess that is the true power of Chi-Fi. 😂

[andrewilley]

@Loweaul I think I actually prefer the sound of the CX31993 over the CS46L41 (the inline button issue was very specific to my Galaxy A54, so otherwise would not have tried another one). The  CS46L41 seemed to have some very slight connection and play/stop amp switching noise, which the CX31993 does not exhibit.

But as you say, Chi-Fi is extremely cheap to try out options, and seems far better spec than the basic 96kHz max adapters offered on Amazon here in the UK for example.

Andre