Problem with Replay Gain

[michaeljb77]

Hi,

I've got replay gain tags on all my files (set through MusicBee) and in Poweramp I have the following settings;

Replay Gain - Apply Gain
Source - Track
RG Preamp - 1dB

The problem is the volume is all over the place, one track is loud, one is soft, one is ear shattering, one is so quiet I wonder if my phone has died...

Am I doing something wrong? I'd love to be able to listen at a reasonably consistent volume (especially when I'm going to sleep).

Thanks!

 

[maxmp]

@michaeljb77 rg preamp can't change balance between channels, nor +1dB can do much. If you're amplifying too much you'll get overloads (which may be hidden by Limit, disable it to check it), adjust RG Preamp or preamp accordingly. 

[michaeljb77]

3 minutes ago, maxmp said:

@michaeljb77 rg preamp can't change balance between channels, nor +1dB can do much. If you're amplifying too much you'll get overloads (which may be hidden by Limit, disable it to check it), adjust RG Preamp or preamp accordingly. 

Okay thanks, I've disabled rg preamp but how to fix all songs playing at different volumes? They play anywhere from silent to very loud and everything inbetween. It's as if RG isn't working at all?

[maxmp]

If enabling RG causes overloads, reduce RG preamp.

[michaeljb77]

1 minute ago, maxmp said:

If enabling RG causes overloads, reduce RG preamp.

Sorry you don't seem to be understanding..

I thought RG was used to kind of normalize music so it plays at similar levels.

This is not the case for me. I have RG tags on all my files, I have RG enabled in Poweramp but when I play a playlist of files some are quiet almost silent, some are loud almost very loud and some are in between silent and loud.

Replay gain doesn't seem to be doing anything.

[maxmp]

@michaeljb77 the RG scanning software must analyze tracks and add the gains to the tags. Poweramp then reads the tags and applies that extra gain for each track/album.

This means the quality of the volume normalization depends on the RG scanning. And usually it makes tracks lower, not louder.

[michaeljb77]

4 minutes ago, maxmp said:

@michaeljb77 the RG scanning software must analyze tracks and add the gains to the tags. Poweramp then reads the tags and applies that extra gain for each track/album.

This means the quality of the volume normalization depends on the RG scanning. And usually it makes tracks lower, not louder.

Ok all my files have RG tags. I've used MusicBee to do the analysis/tagging. Is there a better way of analyzing/tagging than MusicBee?

[maxmp]

@michaeljb77 does it play evenly in MusicBee? If so, it should play so in Poweramp and it's just a matter of configuration. If not, scanning should be redone either with different options or in the different software. We have plans to integrate own scanner into Poweramp, though, as it runs on mobile device with very strict background processing rules, it will be not so reliable for the large libraries.

[andrewilley]

Check that the RG tags are being picked up correctly by Poweramp. While a song is playing, select Info/Tags from the menu and if the RG information is show (only works to show for current song, not in lists).

During the original scanning process, the Gain value should have been determined so that the maximum level (i.e. the loudest single peak moment anywhere in the track) gets set to a specific level. The spec says that should be -14dB from digital maximum, but I don't think PA's default target level is quite that low - Max could tell us more on that though. The target peak level can be further adjusted by using the RG Preamp setting, as the defaults can make listening significantly quieter than a user might expect, as they may not understand that RG is not a volume maximising feature, it's a comparative levelling feature - and usually ends up reducing.

I have my RG Preamp set to +6dB as I don't use any excessive EQ boosts (which is why the extra headroom is advised) and I have the non-RG Preamp set to -2.4dB. For me, that seems to make 100% digital max tracks play at around the same level with or with RG applied.

Andre

[michaeljb77]

On 8/29/2023 at 5:47 PM, andrewilley said:

Check that the RG tags are being picked up correctly by Poweramp. While a song is playing, select Info/Tags from the menu and if the RG information is show (only works to show for current song, not in lists).

During the original scanning process, the Gain value should have been determined so that the maximum level (i.e. the loudest single peak moment anywhere in the track) gets set to a specific level. The spec says that should be -14dB from digital maximum, but I don't think PA's default target level is quite that low - Max could tell us more on that though. The target peak level can be further adjusted by using the RG Preamp setting, as the defaults can make listening significantly quieter than a user might expect, as they may not understand that RG is not a volume maximising feature, it's a comparative levelling feature - and usually ends up reducing.

I have my RG Preamp set to +6dB as I don't use any excessive EQ boosts (which is why the extra headroom is advised) and I have the non-RG Preamp set to -2.4dB. For me, that seems to make 100% digital max tracks play at around the same level with or with RG applied.

Andre

Hi Andre,

Thanks for this, that's a lot of great info. I removed all the gain tags musicbee added and jumped on my linux machine and rescanned everything with metaflac just in case it was a problem with the musicbee scanner.

It does appear that PA is grabbing the gain tags as I can see them on a range of songs I play.

I've spent the past week and a half really trying to listen to the songs and I can tell some songs are quieter (some hard to hear), some songs are louder (have to turn volume down) and some in the middle. I'm pretty bored at the moment so I'm going to grab a sound level meter just to see if it's my brain that's causing problems or if the music is indeed soft/loud

I'll post back if things don't look right.

[andrewilley]

Remember that Replay Gain only cares about matching the single loudest peak moment in a track. For example, a whole track could be really low level but have one loud drumbeat right at the end, and the overall level would be set based on that single drumbeat. That would make the volume of the rest of the track very low. RG doesn't do anything clever psychoacoustically during a track, it just changes the gain for the whole track to keep the peak point below a predefined level.  

Andre

[michaeljb77]

Just now, andrewilley said:

Remember that Replay Gain only cares about matching the single loudest peak moment in a track. For example, a whole track could be really low level but have one loud drumbeat right at the end, and the overall level would be set based on that single drumbeat. That would make the volume of the rest of the track very low. RG doesn't do anything clever psychoacoustically during a track, it just changes the gain for the whole track to keep the peak point below a predefined level.  

Andre

Ah ok that may explain the quiet tracks! I'll keep listening and see what I hear

[andrewilley]

What you are more likely looking for is known as AGC (Automatic Gain Control) or 'Normalise', or a compander. That sort of system analyses the audio content "on the fly" during playback and makes micro-adjustments to the volume to compensate for the intended dynamic range of the recording. Thus (for example) during a piece of classical music a very quiet flute passage would get boosted, while a later loud horns/drums/etc section would be reduced.

Poweramp does not offer that sort of feature as yet, although the Compressor option in the stand-alone Equaliser module does much the same job. 

Andre

[michaeljb77]

4 minutes ago, andrewilley said:

What you are more likely looking for is known as AGC (Automatic Gain Control) or 'Normalise'. That sort of system analyses the audio content "on the fly" during playback and makes micro-adjustments to the volume to compensate for the intended dynmaic range of the recording. Thus (for example) in a piece of classical music a very quiet flute passage would get boosted, while a later loud horns/drums/etc section would be reduced.

Poweramp does not offer that sort of feature as yet, although the Compressor option in the stand-alone Equaliser module does much the same job. 

Andre

Thanks! I'll check it out

[michaeljb77]

On 9/12/2023 at 7:11 PM, andrewilley said:

Poweramp does not offer that sort of feature as yet, although the Compressor option in the stand-alone Equaliser module does much the same job. 

Andre

Hi, I tried to get the stand-alone equalizer working with Poweramp. I followed what guides I could find but I couldn't get it to work. Is there an 'official' howto on getting the external equalizer working with Poweramp?

[andrewilley]

@michaeljb77 

Andre

[michaeljb77]

1 hour ago, andrewilley said:

@michaeljb77 

Andre

Thanks! Got it working!