ReplayGain / R128Gain problems

[null]

Just a question, does R128Gain work on Opus files? I try playing files on Poweramp with ReplayGain on and off and there is a difference - but it's not enough for them to be the same loudness.

I add the R128 tags on foobar2000. Yes, foobar it says it's ReplayGain but for Opus files it does R128 instead. And I checked with Kid3, the tags are there. Poweramp shows them too, when you look at the track info.

Any help?

[null]

OK yeah, either foobar2000 isn't tagging properly or Poweramp doesn't apply enough gain. Sample files attached.

Noise high.opus Noise low.opus

EDIT 2: It gets worse. Ogg Vorbis works perfectly. Both Opus files are quieter. Maybe Poweramp is shooting the header gain too much or too little? I don't know, I'm confused.

Edited July 26, 2020 by null

[andrewilley]

This issue has come up a few times in the past, but I thought it was fixed a while back.

Also I found the following about another app where R128 and ReplayGain were applied if they both exist in the file, I wonder if that is somehow related? 

 

Andre

[maxmp]

@null you can always check the actual gain value while track is loaded (playing or paused) in Poweramp via Info/Tags.

Please note that Poweramp applies extra 5dB to R128 tags - https://hydrogenaud.io/index.php?PHPSESSID=a81khe0pqtnv2js38aj40j5qr2&topic=104878.msg859974#msg859974

Opus also has header gain, this is always applied (in addition to R128 tags) and not shown anywhere in the UI.

[null]

@maxmp I just know that ReplayGain and R128Gain on these sample files work fine on foobar2000. They all sound the same volume.

It's Poweramp that has these issues. Both Noise high on Opus and Vorbis sound equally loud on foobar2000, same for both Noise low. And when gain is applied, all files sound equally loud.

Poweramp plays all four files at different loudness whether ReplayGain is on or off. At the very least it should play both Noise low equally quiet and both Noise high equally loud.

What other app can I use to calculate R128Gain tags?

@andrewilley No, I specifically made sure none of my files had ReplayGain tags. See sample files.

Edited July 26, 2020 by null

[andrewilley]

What gain values do you see for both of these files in Info/Tags in Poweramp. 

Andre

[null]

Noise high: 5dB
Noise high vorbis: -16,6dB
Noise low: 29,09dB
Noise low vorbis: 7,48dB

EDIT: I uploaded Ogg files but the forum software recognized it as video.
EDIT 2: I downloaded GoneMAD and it applies the gain correctly. It's definitely a Poweramp issue.

Edited July 26, 2020 by null

[andrewilley]

The two pairs of OGGs/OPUS play very differently in VLC Media Player and Zoom Player on my PC. On Foobar, the two pairs play the OGG and OPUS the same. 

Andre

[null]

I didn't upload any FLACs though.

Anyways, does VLC even support R128Gain? I trust foobar2000 more than VLC.

FWIW, GoneMAD plays both pairs at very different loudness with RG off. But when it's on, all files sound the same.

EDIT: I can't get replaygain to work on VLC. Not even with my FLACs. All my music has replaygain. Maybe I'm missing a package...

Edited July 26, 2020 by null

[andrewilley]

Sorry, I meant OPUS and OGG, not FLAC. I also loaded all four into Audacity and the actual recorded levels are all over the place in there too (in fact none of the four are the same, and one (OGG High) is so over-saturated it would never work anyway). That's the nice thing about standards of course, there are so many of them to choose from...

We'll need to let Max take a look at these, but I suspect they are overbaked.  

Andre

[null]

I think I'm just gonna do a single 440 sine wave so we can have better samples.

[maxmp]

@null With these 2 files provided (Replay Gain enabled in Poweramp Replay Gain settings) the difference in volume is the same as in Foobar2000 (there is a huge difference in volume so I don't think these are good test samples). Did you mean some other test tracks?

[null]

1 minute ago, maxmp said:

@null With these 2 files provided (Replay Gain enabled in Poweramp Replay Gain settings) the difference in volume is the same as in Foobar2000. Did you mean some other test tracks?

I provided four files but the forum thinks the OGGs are video. Making new samples right now and will upload them as a Zip. 2 FLAC, 2 Ogg and 2 Opus, a single 440hz sine wave, directly exported from Audacity, two different volumes.

[maxmp]

So I should compare ogg to opus, right?

[null]

Yeah!

OGG noise samples sound equally loud when ReplayGain is on.

Opus samples do get some gain, but not enough to make them equally loud.

[andrewilley]

The files that show here as video clips can be download from the three-dots menu on their right

Andre

[null]

Just now, andrewilley said:

The files that show here as video clips can be download from the three-dots menu on their right

Let's forget about those. I have new ones here!

Test samples 2.zip

[maxmp]

Ok, thanks, tried that (the original oggs and opuses) and I don't perceive any difference for high vs high and low vs low, ogg vs opus, by just hearing, I can do some instrumental tests later, but on first sight gain is applied properly. Have you enabled Replay Gain processing in Poweramp Settings / Audio? Tested with the default settings there - only Replay Gain is set to Apply. Note that setting Source to Track won't apply same level for Ogg Low - as Ogg Low has higher gain set as track replay gain.

[null]

ReplayGain is on, no clipping protection, source is track, but hear me out.

The behaviour I expect is for Opus files to sound equally loud to each other when ReplayGain is on and set to track. Poweramp doesn't achieve this. The Opus files have different loudness on playback.

With Ogg and FLAC it works alright. The problem is Opus, which uses R128Gain; Poweramp applies gain, but it's not enough! And with a noise track or a simple tone this is very obvious.

[maxmp]

@null Thanks for the new set of files. I can see your confusion here. You bundled different values for Track gain and Album gain into "low" set of files. "High" set of files is played at the same level, but for low, as you're using album gain and Poweramp doesn't support album gain for opus, you get different results.

Poweramp opus replay gain support was never updated for the new album gain tag, so that's it's the way it is now - nobody requested it until now. Added to TODO.

[null]

32 minutes ago, maxmp said:

as you're using album gain and Poweramp doesn't support album gain for opus, you get different results

I'm using track gain. I don't need album gain as much as I can just adjust the volume at the start of the album, but when I'm listening on shuffle the faulty track gain doesn't help me and tracks usually play too loud or too low, even with ReplayGain on.

[maxmp]

@null You can use track gain right now - Poweramp fully supports it for opus. Album gain is also added to the (future) build. Thanks a much for the details and test files!

[null]

@maxmp Track gain doesn't work for Opus…

[maxmp]

@null Sorry, can't reproduce this (e.g. for Tone high opus/flac/ogg). Thanks!

[null]

Well, I can, and it doesn't work so I really don't know what to do here other than bother you.
Tone low sounds extremely low on Poweramp and not at the same volume of the other tracks. It sounds alright on foobar2000 and GoneMAD. The problem is Poweramp.

ReplayGain is on and set to track. Tone high Opus sounds loud and Tone low Opus sounds low. Something is wrong here.

Any help?

EDIT: I know Tone high sounds the same volume. The problem is Tone low.

EDIT 2: I got the test files on another phone. I can reproduce.

Set Replaygain to on, no clipping protection, source track.

Expected: All test files should sound equally loud
Behaviour: Tone low Opus sounds extremely low.

Phone 1: Samsung Galaxy J5 (2015). Modified with unofficial Bliss ROM.
Phone 2: Nokia 1, Android 9. Stock ROM (unmodified).

Both phones with latest Poweramp.

Edited July 27, 2020 by null