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High Resolution Audio Processing discussion

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On 2/2/2018 at 8:18 PM, speedingcheetah said:

Either your device DAC does not support 24bit via native API then, OEMs may require their own firmware module to activate it (Samsung and LG love to do this) or Poweramp is reporting in wrong.  

Use a external USB DAC and it will report correctly if u set those same Output settings. (i use Fiio E17K ALPEN 2 )

I know for certain these output settings worked on the LG v10. I had 2 of them. one that was upgraded and one that was not. The upgraded one lost the High res output option and sounded terrible. After changing those output settings, i compared the sound out of each of them via aux, sounded the same again. (LG does have a Hi-Fi DAC toggle option in their rom u have to have enabled too)

On my Pixel XL, even when on 7.1.2 and Poweramp High res output worked, it still was says it was 16bit.  Only my USB DAC would say 24bit.

Took me days to research and figure out the proper audio settings. Turns out Snapdragon 625 doesn't support aptx HD. Great now I'm stuck with one option hoping max could fix the high res output via wired headphones. It's the only way i can take advantage of having .flac files on my music folders. I think Asus didn't touch the audio config after updating to Android oreo, can't test it out untill high res audio works on Poweramp. 

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There is no advantage to have flac files and transmit them over APTX HD, this format is capped at 576kbps (some heavy compression assured). It is still lossy, just as MQA tends to be. 

Try Neutron as a testbed for hi res support on your phone. There is some sketchy implementation. 

 

 

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On 2/2/2018 at 10:23 AM, Draconican said:

I can't just roll back to Android 6.0 when high res output is working, Can't trade the performance and battery optimization of Android 8.0 to Android 6. I'll stick to Poweramp due to high flexibility of the settings for Audio and Audio quality. Still hopeful we're gonna get the update soon. 

 

Screenshot_20180202-112058.png

How to get to this screen can anyone guide me? 

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3 hours ago, Draconican said:

Took me days to research and figure out the proper audio settings. Turns out Snapdragon 625 doesn't support aptx HD. Great now I'm stuck with one option hoping max could fix the high res output via wired headphones. It's the only way i can take advantage of having .flac files on my music folders. I think Asus didn't touch the audio config after updating to Android oreo, can't test it out untill high res audio works on Poweramp. 

 

2 hours ago, Quade13 said:

There is no advantage to have flac files and transmit them over APTX HD, this format is capped at 576kbps (some heavy compression assured). It is still lossy, just as MQA tends to be. 

Try Neutron as a testbed for hi res support on your phone. There is some sketchy implementation. 

 

 

AptX and AptX HD are for bluetooth!   As far as i know, high res setting does nothing for bluetooth.

Second, what Bluetooth codecs ur device has has to due with the ROM on the phone, not hardware. Many OEM's don't include AptX HD. They have to pay licensing fees etc. 

My Moto X Pure has a custom rom on it and it supports all the Bluetooth codecs now because those were written into the custom rom, where as Stock Moto rom did not.

Even much older phones with custom rom can support the newer codecs.

Not until recently, with Android 8.0 did Google integrate such Bluetooth codecs in to stock Android, but it is still an Optional thing for oems to licence and add in to there roms.

Third, Sony LDAC is the best codec so far. As it does 330, 660 and 990kbps. http://www.avhub.com.au/news/sound-image/what-is-sony-ldac-and-how-does-it-do-it-408285

I have 2 sets of Sony BT earbuds that support LDAC, and there is a noticeable difference between forcing AptX/AptX HD vs LDAC using my Pixel XL that supports all of them natively.

 

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1 hour ago, SatriaPerdana said:

How to get to this screen can anyone guide me? 

Is the "Info" button on the top RIGHT next to the other buttons on the now playing screen.

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It seems there was problem in my firmware itself, that's y hi res on neutron was not working...well now neuton is using pcm24 as its playback hal,at last sound that pleases my ears, finally I have an alternative of Poweramp,I really wish max releases new update, I'll miss Poweramp's powerful bass but for now it's uninstalled..

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5 hours ago, JJ Singh said:

It seems there was problem in my firmware itself, that's y hi res on neutron was not working...well now neuton is using pcm24 as its playback hal,at last sound that pleases my ears, finally I have an alternative of Poweramp,I really wish max releases new update, I'll miss Poweramp's powerful bass but for now it's uninstalled..

Are you saying that you can distinguish between a 16bit and a 24bit stream? Really?

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36 minutes ago, Kado said:

Are you saying that you can distinguish between a 16bit and a 24bit stream? Really?

Pcm24 decoder is very superior. It reduces static noise drastically so that is why I want Hi Res to work, and yes my ears are developed enough that they can hear static very clearly and unlike many others that noise annoys me too much that it ruins the joy listening music... Rest u can guess, I'll rather pay than to hear that noise.... 

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56 minutes ago, JJ Singh said:

Pcm24 decoder is very superior. It reduces static noise drastically so that is why I want Hi Res to work, and yes my ears are developed enough that they can hear static very clearly and unlike many others that noise annoys me too much that it ruins the joy listening music... Rest u can guess, I'll rather pay than to hear that noise.... 

You're aware that the difference between 16bit and 24bit is dynamic range right? It's the difference between the loudest and the most silent sounds. 16bit has a 96dB range while 24bit has a 144dB range. The human ear has a "static" range of about 60dB so even undithered 16 bit audio has more range than the human ear. Now surely there's some problem if you can ear floor noise on your equipment with 16bit audio. Also aren't you confusing 24bit decoding that all players do with 24bit audio output (rendering)?

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1 hour ago, Kado said:

You're aware that the difference between 16bit and 24bit is dynamic range right? It's the difference between the loudest and the most silent sounds. 16bit has a 96dB range while 24bit has a 144dB range. The human ear has a "static" range of about 60dB so even undithered 16 bit audio has more range than the human ear. Now surely there's some problem if you can ear floor noise on your equipment with 16bit audio. Also aren't you confusing 24bit decoding that all players do with 24bit audio output (rendering)?

I know what u r trying to say, I also know all about dynamic range. Some times there are things u know but u don't ve correct words to explain that's what is happening with me now ;p. Bro as far as my ears r concerned I can hear noise floor cuz I mainly listen to music @ 3-4 volume lvl and btw u said dynamic rage, it's basically signal to noise ratio, more dynamic rage means low noise hence Hi Res support.. And just to be clear I meant to say that OpenSL audio (android default) is very poor.. Can't go into details but if enabling Hi res is giving me what I want, I mean I can literally feel the difference then y say no to Hi Res for my flac files? ? 

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38 minutes ago, JJ Singh said:

I know what u r trying to say, I also know all about dynamic range. Some times there are things u know but u don't ve correct words to explain that's what is happening with me now ;p. Bro as far as my ears r concerned I can hear noise floor cuz I mainly listen to music @ 3-4 volume lvl and btw u said dynamic rage, it's basically signal to noise ratio, more dynamic rage means low noise hence Hi Res support.. And just to be clear I meant to say that OpenSL audio (android default) is very poor.. Can't go into details but if enabling Hi res is giving me what I want, I mean I can literally feel the difference then y say no to Hi Res? ?

If you listen to noise with low volume the problem is in the audio implementation on your device.

The high res implementation used by Poweramp probably bypasses the Android audio resampler that is awful (in your device) and that's why you no longer hear noise.

Dynamic range has nothing to do with noise.

I have no issues with either the internal DAC of my device (Moto X Style) or my USB DAC (smsl idea) using AKG Y50 headphones (links with audio quality reviews embedded).

Mate your idea of high resolution audio is not good, just read this and see why high res audio is a gimmic https://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html

Cheers.

 

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8 hours ago, Kado said:

If you listen to noise with low volume the problem is in the audio implementation on your device.

The high res implementation used by Poweramp probably bypasses the Android audio resampler that is awful (in your device) and that's why you no longer hear noise.

Dynamic range has nothing to do with noise.

I have no issues with either the internal DAC of my device (Moto X Style) or my USB DAC (smsl idea) using AKG Y50 headphones (links with audio quality reviews embedded).

Mate your idea of high resolution audio is not good, just read this and see why high res audio is a gimmic https://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html

Cheers.

 

The Style has built in DAC? I have the Pure but I thought it didn't have High Res built in

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11 hours ago, Kado said:

If you listen to noise with low volume the problem is in the audio implementation on your device.

The high res implementation used by Poweramp probably bypasses the Android audio resampler that is awful (in your device) and that's why you no longer hear noise.

Dynamic range has nothing to do with noise.

I have no issues with either the internal DAC of my device (Moto X Style) or my USB DAC (smsl idea) using AKG Y50 headphones (links with audio quality reviews embedded).

Mate your idea of high resolution audio is not good, just read this and see why high res audio is a gimmic https://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html

Cheers.

 

Bro I wanna let you know that I ve enough knowledge of hi res on which I can decide whether to use hi res or not.., as I said for me all that matters is noise. And about my awful audio resampler in my device ? well can't say no to that.. But same problem persists with all my past devices.U use usb dac I don't. For me internal hi fi dac matters. I used moto g5 plus earlier nd now redmi note 4, both have same problem,And YES it's Bypassing native awful resampler(but I still wonder it's resampler that is awful or audio Api). When hi res is enabled it uses direct mode to play audio which forces to use internal hi fi dac whose audio output is much superior as compared to normal audio track or opensl es api, that is what I want!! Just in case u wonder I use sennheiser cx 275s (not for audiophile ofcourse cuz it's frequency response is 17-23000 Hz, ??, even sampling rate of 48KHz(~24KHz preserved) is more than what my earphones can handle. And sorry if my words earlier confused you, as I said earlier I don't have words to explain but I know about it. 

Cheers 

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3 hours ago, Stevieex23 said:

The Style has built in DAC? I have the Pure but I thought it didn't have High Res built in

If u use a device with snapdragon 600 or above, It have Internal hi fi dac and hi res support 24 bit 192 Khz on 600 series, and up to 32 bit on 800+ series i guess, can't say anything about 400 series. 

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8 minutes ago, JJ Singh said:

Bro I wanna let you know that I ve enough knowledge of hi res on which I can decide whether to use hi res or not.., as I said for me all that matters is noise. And about my awful audio resampler in my device ? well can't say no to that.. But same problem persists with all my past devices.U use usb dac I don't. For me internal hi fi dac matters. I used moto g5 plus earlier nd now redmi note 4, both have same problem,And YES it's Bypassing native awful resampler(but I still wonder it's resampler that is awful or audio Api). When hi res is enabled it uses direct mode to play audio which forces to use internal hi fi dac whose audio output is much superior as compared to normal audio track or opensl es api, that is what I want!! Just in case u wonder I use sennheiser cx 275s (not for audiophile ofcourse cuz it's frequency response is 17-23000 Hz, ??, even sampling rate of 48KHz(~24KHz preserved) is more than what my earphones can handle. And sorry if my words earlier confused you, as I said earlier I don't have words to explain but I know about it. 

Cheers 

Noise even at a low volume means faulty DAC or the file itself has issues, its as simple as that. Seems like you are talking about grain, a better DAC might help if Max doesn't show up with the goods. 

Btw Im using MI MAX with Senn HD 598SR, I don't have noise issues but yes the internal DAC/amp could make the sound cleaner and  even more spacious 

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39 minutes ago, Noobie said:

but yes the internal DAC/amp could make the sound cleaner and  even more spacious 

That's what I'm trying to explain ??, btw nice pairs?, Also there r no file issues, I mostly use itunes m4a and flacs. 

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@Stevieex23
All devices that output audio have a DAC, the style although using a SD808 does not use the SD DAC but other solution that has a fixed bit depth of 16bits and a 48kHz sample rate. So no it does not support 24bit audio rendering, even if you use the Samsung trick to fool Poweramp into enabling 24bit audio output the android mixer will render the audio as 16bit 48kHz.

@JJ Singh
No one is saying that you shouldn't use the high resolution output but trying to explain why a standard resolution stream has no noise and why you may have noise in standard resolution output.

The only player that I'm aware that uses direct DAC output is UAPP because it uses a custom driver to acess the DAC (either built in or USB), the rest of the players uses the android native driver.
Now if you make the player apply some specific flags to the stream, audio may be rendered via a different path or use different features of the DAC and fix some of the issues you're having (that's what Poweramp and some other players may be doing).

Regarding sample rates, Nyquist–Shannon sampling theorem says that in order to record a specific frequency you need to have a sample rate that is at least twice the frequency of the original signal. So a 48kHz sample rate will produce audio with a maximum frequency of 24kHz (this related to "sampling rate of 48KHz(~24KHz preserved)", nothing is lost, it's just the way it works).
Also, even your headphones are overkill (regarding to frequency) as the human ear tops at around 20kHz and hearing degrades with age (not volume but sensitivity to higher frequencies).

In the end I cant really put my finger on why with different devices you had noise but as @Noobie said, "Noise even at a low volume means faulty DAC" or as I've said bad audio implementation.
I've had a few devices (Motorola Defy, Samsung Galaxy SIII, Moto X Style, Umidigi Crystal, GGMM A1 DAC, S.M.S.L. iDEA USB DAC) and only the Defy had background noise.

High resolution output does not magically produce higher quality audio.

Cheers!

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5 hours ago, Kado said:

@Stevieex23

@JJ Singh
Now if you make the player apply some specific flags to the stream, audio may be rendered via a different path or use different features of the DAC and fix some of the issues you're having (that's what Poweramp and some other players may be doing).

In the end I cant really put my finger on why with different devices you had noise but as @Noobie
High resolution output does not magically produce higher quality audio.

Cheers!

100% exactly, but audio is rendered only if HRA is enabled(and when it's done atleast for me output is grt) and I never said enabling HRA magically produce higher quality audio not atleast u have hi res files, ?? grt bro u really know this stuff it's good to ve people with real knowledge in forum.. Nice to talk to u. 

Cheers 

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On 11/27/2017 at 12:25 AM, barcajuvebilbao said:

Thanks man. I read from your profile that you are from Birmingham. I am really huge fan of Heavy Metal and Black Sabbath. There are many of flac files of there albums in rutracker.org mostly 192 khz and 24 bit, and I really looking forward to v3 that would support 192 khz. But I have some more questions. Can I count on 384 khz on the v4 or higher, because there are flac files that rendered from vinyl at 384 khz. And last question, I happen to notice that v2s UI ergonomics are way behind of some other players like doubletwist that provides up to date material design that flys under fingertips. Can I hope that v3 would be something like that or it would be a little bit refined v2 UI. Thanks in advance

So, you like listening to the pops and crackles and wow and flutter of vinyl? I grew up on vinyl and tape and it's no novelty to me. I'm so glad I don't have to clean a record every time I want to listen to music and for each side at that. I was wondering why they have a high resolution option, since only content recorded at high resolution or sampled from an analog source at high resolution can benefit. I bet a lot of people use this option on CD or lower resolution music and have no idea that they're just using more processing power without any benefit. At least you actually know what you're talking about.

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On 11/27/2017 at 1:06 PM, ACE7F22 said:

 

 

...Bottom line, try not to get the details confused, and don't under appreciate the value of being able to recreate music as close as possible to its original analog quality.

I've done listening tests on compression schemes and bit rates and my criteria is that I want the ride symbols to go "ting, ting, ting" and not sound like shakers or a splash symbol. I also like to hear the space the music was recorded in (or digital reverb tails) as well as the music itself. (It's 2019 now and I just got a phone with quad DACs that are suppose to be the best you can get on a phone. I use my phone with my live rig all the time during band breaks.)

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On 11/28/2017 at 8:46 PM, Bill2uok said:

This is great news but will there be an addon to allow 432hz conversion and playback? Please this would set Poweramp apart fromany player current and upcoming. Just tell me it is in the works! 

Conversion won't make any difference. You can't add information by conversion. Only content originally recorded at high resolution or sampled at high resolution from an analog source will have more information.

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On 12/7/2017 at 8:44 AM, Timmy Fox said:

I'm sorry but there is several things that are factually incorrect about this.

Firstly, the "Only sampling 2 times" has been proven through the Nyqvist theorem to be enough to reproduce the full soundwave indetically to its source. Surely we can capture more points and such but that's completely redundant because only 2 samples is actually needed to perfectly reproduce an identical analog signal. Sure the real world isn't flawless but the little bit of extra leeway added with 44.1 and 48kHz (over the theoretical requirement of 40kHz) is enough to eliminate these. Thus, there is no other reason than the "bigger numbers must be better"-mentality to have higher sample rates for mere audio reproduction.

Secondly, I think you misunderstand bit depth. It has little to do with sample size and is all about amplitude and dynamic range. With 16 bits we can seamlessly reproduce 120dB of dynamic range which is plentiful unless you want to go loud enough to cause yourself permanent hearing damage in a matter of minutes, if not even seconds, whilst simultaneously trying to hear a mosquito or needle falling in the background.

You can't compare it to video that way because your eyes work quite differently and there are very different sensitivities to be applied; Most shortcomings in video is limited by costs and technology whereas audio is limited only by your ears. But sure, if you absolutely wish to compare your eyes and ears in this manner then the more fair comparison would be these:

  • Take an IR-emitter (like a remote controller) or a true blacklight. Most likely you won't actually be able to see any real light yet you know it's there. If you photograph it with a camera you'll see it's probably really bright even if your eyes can't see anything. That is a limitation of your eyes. You physically cannot see it. This is a much better analogy to why higher sample rates won't actually make any difference.
  • You know how, if you've looked at a bright light and gotten dazzled it can get to see anything, especially things that are dark? This is the limitation of your eyes' dynamic range; Your eyes are physically limited in how much difference they can make out between bright and dark. You usually don't notice it very much however because your eyes constantly adjust themselves much in the same was as a camera adjusts itself depending on whether your trying to photograph something bright or something dark. In other words, there is a limit to how big the difference between bright and dark can be for your eyes to be able to clearly make out any details (also why it's so hard to see anything in a dark room after you have just been in a bright room). It's the exact same for your ears, there's a limit to the loudest and quietest sound you are able to make out at the same time, though for your ears they don't have to adjust nearly as much as your eyes will and the limit is closer to where it's so loud it starts hurting and you'll eventually go deaf due to sheer loudness. 16 bits is enough to cover this range practically seamlessly.

Our eyes can't even see light, but only it's reflection off some sort of material.

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10 minutes ago, midi510 said:

Conversion won't make any difference. You can't add information by conversion. 

I think the reference to 432Hz conversion was not a resolution comment but the psycho-acoustic theory regarding the tuning frequencies that music should be played back at. Not really sure about that one though, I'd prefer to get as close as I can to what the artist and studio engineer wanted us to hear rather than presuming that I know better. https://ask.audio/articles/music-theory-432-hz-tuning-separating-fact-from-fiction

It strikes me as being along the same audiophile snake-oil lines as things like gold-plated digital connectors giving a clearer bass response... 

Andre

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2 minutes ago, andrewilley said:

I think the reference to 432Hz conversion was not a resolution comment but the pyscho-acoustic theory regarding tuning frequencies of music. Not really sure about that one though, strikes me along the same lines as gold-plated digital connectors giving a clearer bass response... https://ask.audio/articles/music-theory-432-hz-tuning-separating-fact-from-fiction

Andre

My mistake, I was confusing it (on the fly) with 384KHz as double 192. I love my TC Electronic Polytune Clip tuner, but it won't calibrate to 432Hz. I wonder how one could accurately convert a mixed piece to 432. It seems like each track would have to be converted and remixed. Besides, you wouldn't want the percussion converted, right?

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